tokens

[moneyer12]

is it possible to have a sub section of coins dedicated to tokens, there are many many examples from all over the world that have been used in lieu of coinage at various times throughout history, here in the uk there was quite a proliferation of municipal and traders tokens in the 18th and 19th centuries due to the dearth of circulating base coinage. there are also amy examples of military token coinage used in theatres of war which also acted as regular coinage. the field of token collecting is a vast area in it's own right and should have its own section.

[tcawe]

For a new category to be introduced, we need a coordinator for it. Would you like to be the coordinator for the tokens category?

Please read information needed to kick start a category on: More Collectibles? and kindly answer the questions there.

Thanks

[moneyer12]

i would be honoured to coordinate the token section, there are numerous catalogues and publications which deal exclusively with token collecting such as "richards online token guide", "dix noonan and webb token guide", "the staffordshire token society guide to english regional tokens" and "the motherlode of telephone tokens". the format of the nif would be exactly the same as the coins nif except that a section would be added for "region" or "company" i envisage that all german notgeld, french notgeld and english regionals along with the many tokens from around the world would be included which would make the section quite large. in time machine tokens could also be introduced as they are also quite collectible.

[Rubycored]

I think we should have a very brief discussion about what shall be defined as a "token".

For example, in the case of coins, there are coin "tokens" and bank tokens that were issued during war or during time of coin shortages and did circulate as supplement to legal tender coinages - I personally believe these should remain in the Coins section.

Also, will there be a need to move all "fantasy issues" from the coins catalogue into the Tokens group? as they were actually NOT circulation coinages but merely used for collectors.

Similarly, telephone tokens used to operate payphones should remain in Phonecards section (unless phonecard collectors disagree)

There are too tokens like Amusement Park tokens (used as "admission fee" to try some games in fairs), Casino chips, Supermarket Trolly tokens (used in lieu of actual coin required to operate a trolly, for example), penny-press tokens from museums, to list a few,; if these can be included then I have no problems with it

I don't mind the inclusion of the token category mind you, i just would like to get the gray area that overlaps other collectibles cleared up before confusions arise.

[moneyer12]

good point jim, for example the ironbridge museum tokens listed under great britain coins would be move as would all the fantasy issues. the massive grey area is the non circulating legal tender coins issued by the likes of the isle of man and tuvalu, in my opinion they are not coins but also they are not tokens, as true tokens are used for payment, goods etc etc etc. telephone tokens would remain with telephone cards as they are a branch of that hobby, but everything else would be a token including notgeld and bank tokens. which are not issued by the state but separate authorities such as municipal and trade issues, which had no real monetary value outside the issuing area. in coins the "german states" section is made up of mainly notgeld instead of the true pre unification issues much like the italian states section. i think that the two sections should be closely linked as they have many areas in which they overlap, then we have to look at banknotes as well, where some issues are localised (brisbane expo) and not issued for general circulation.

[Rubycored]

So in essence you're concentrating on the "localised" coinage productions as Tokens you describe other than the broader "metallic disk" type tokens.

Jussst making sure. Because like i said if you're taking the borader sense of the token definition then you're going to have the likes of what i described in my previous post, and there are collectors of those (e.g. Penny-press collector's group of UK: http://ukpennies.co.uk/ )

BTW: interesting read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Token_coin

[moneyer12]

correct jim the penny press things are not tokens as they have no monetary or goods value, the ideal area to look at is the condor tokens of the uk from the 18th and 19th century plus trade tokens from individual stores such as the australian and new zealand traders tokens.

[Rubycored]

Sounds good. Let's roll with that.

As for the NIF file, shall we also include an info where the token in question is used for? For example Supplementary Coinages, Grocery/Merchant Tokens, Canteen Tokens, Transport Tokens, Arcade Tokens...

[moneyer12]

Sounds good. Let's roll with that.

As for the NIF file, shall we also include an info where the token in question is used for? For example Supplementary Coinages, Grocery/Merchant Tokens, Canteen Tokens, Transport Tokens, Arcade Tokens...

yes jim that's the idea, arcade tokens have the generic name machine tokens, you must also include military tokens such as these british army card tokens

https://colnect.com/forum/download/file!id=59224

[tcawe]

Thank you guys for the taking the discussion forward and I believe moneyer12 would be a great coordinator.

Coins vs. Tokens

IMHO the coins category should contain only coins which serve or served as legal tender. Anything else, while it could be nice and worth collecting, should not be considered a coin. I do think we should add a "coin type" field to indicate circulating/commemorative/etc. (write me which options you think exactly) to help separate different kinds of coins. With this it would be easy to separate specialized issues that are meant only for collectors but are in fact legal tender, although never used as such.

Tokens category can then contain all the other items which are similar in form to coins but were never used as legal tender. We could probably add a token type field as well.

Navigation

Please choose one of these options: with coins navigation is generally country -> series -> list and we could do something similar. In such a case we wouldn't have the token producer (company) as a different field. This is a simple solution if most companies producing tokens have not created many different types and there wouldn't be a huge amount of series in each country.

Second option is more similar to phone cards where navigation is done country -> company -> series -> list. This creates another level navigation and would be better if most companies creating tokens have a great variety of those and would need different series.

I believe the first option is better but I await your input.

Either way we could also navigation by the token type field in a similar fashion to phone card system and transportation types lists so one could navigate

type -> country -> series -> list if we choose the first option or type -> country -> company -> series -> list if we choose the second option.

Fields

Token fields would probably be similar to those of coins with the addition of

PRODUCER - if we choose the first navigation option above

TOKEN TYPE - as described above

The mint field should probably be removed. Please review other fields and tell me if they should all exist with token.

Thanks

[Rubycored]

just a backslash? I'll take that as a "yes" then

[tcawe]

I actually written a full response and it then got deleted and I had to rewrite the whole thing I first submitted and then edited so you got caught in the middle Please see my message above.

just a backslash? I'll take that as a "yes" then

[Rubycored]

I actually written a full response and it then got deleted and I had to rewrite the whole thing I first submitted and then edited so you got caught in the middle Please see my message above.

A-ha, you fell victim too to internet connection hiccup? Because I know that if you're logged into colnect and your internet connection breaks, you will be logged out of the forums/pm system (but not the whole site). So you're forced to relogin - which is automatic when you try acccess any link or access your inbox - but if you're typing up a response but your connection goes, the server would think you're trying to post as a guest, force log you in, and bring you up the reply box, but what you have written isn't saved

As for the navigation. I think Type > Countries > series > list would be the best option, since we have different types of collectible tokens that people collect so it's best to separate them out for easier navigation than have different types under the same country which can be a bit messy after a while.

[moneyer12]

i'm with amir on this one, a coin to me is a circulating piece not something produced entirely for collectors, however bullion coins do not circulate as such but they are legal tender, in reality if i go to a shop in the uk and i buy something for £1 then i could theoretically give a sovereign as payment, because the actual face value of a sovereign is £1 and they were used as such in late georgian and early victorian times when £1 was a large sum of money. but something like the motor cycle shaped things from somalia are not circulating legal tender and as such in my view are not real coins but tokens. i have included a photo of the halsall penny as an example of the uk "condor" tokens which were issued in the 18th/19th centuries.......................

[404 LINK REMOVED]

[tcawe]

Jim, let's leave supposed Colnect bugs out of this one for now The communication hiccup here is extremely annoying but seems getting proper mobile Internet in India is not a simple thing at all.

John, please respond in regard to fields and navigation as I've suggested above and perhaps your own take on these. I'll await your answers to produce a draft NIF you could then try filling in with some sample.

The subject of items which belong to a few categories, such as tokens used for transportation or calling, is not fully decided for now. Perhaps in the future it will be possible to add a cross reference between different categories.